Category: Dating and Relationships
This issue was already in the back of my mind when the “blind dating site” topic inspired me to conduct this informal survey. Please take a moment to answer these questions, as I am very curious to see the results and may decide to take this thing further (all participants remaining anonymous, of course). If you don’t want to post your answers publicly, feel free to private-message me. Thanks for your participation!
The purpose of this survey is to try and determine the prevalence of dating discrimination against the blind and the effects of this discrimination.
Questions
1. Are you partially blind or totally blind?
2. What is your age?
3. Taking into account your complete dating history, approximately what percentage of your partners have been blind?
4. Of the people who expressed interest in dating you but whose interest you did not reciprocate, approximately what percentage were blind?
5. Of the people who you expressed interest in dating but who did not reciprocate your interest, approximately what percentage were blind?
6. Have you ever been told by a sighted person that they would not date you because of your blindness? If so, how many times has this happened?
7. Have you ever had a strong feeling that a sighted person refused to date you because of your blindness, even if the person did not indicate this to you? If so, how many times has this happened?
8. In your opinion, is dating discrimination against the blind prevalent in our society?
9. Has dating discrimination ever adversely affected your self-esteem?
10. Has dating discrimination ever discouraged you from seeking a sighted partner?
11. In your opinion, has dating discrimination affected your chances of finding true love?
12. In your opinion, has dating discrimination impeded your ability to start a family?
13. In your opinion, what steps can be taken to eliminate dating discrimination?
Thanks again,
Becky
1. Are you partially blind or totally blind?
partially blind
2. What is your age?
26/35
3. Taking into account your complete dating history, approximately what percentage of your partners have been blind?
20%
4. Of the people who expressed interest in dating you but whose interest you did not reciprocate, approximately what percentage were blind?
50%
5. Of the people who you expressed interest in dating but who did not reciprocate your interest, approximately what percentage were blind?
10%
6. Have you ever been told by a sighted person that they would not date you because of your blindness? If so, how many times has this happened?
No.
7. Have you ever had a strong feeling that a sighted person refused to date you because of your blindness, even if the person did not indicate this to you? If so, how many times has this happened?
No.
8. In your opinion, is dating discrimination against the blind prevalent in our society?
No, only what blind people see ourselves as been discriminate
9. Has dating discrimination ever adversely affected your self-esteem?
No, i don't believe in dating discrimation, only believe in people that discriminate themselves and using it as an excuse/reason
10. Has dating discrimination ever discouraged you from seeking a sighted partner?
N/A
11. In your opinion, has dating discrimination affected your chances of finding true love?
No. True love is more of a fantacy than a reality. there might be 5 out of 100 couples can consider themselves having true love, but honestly, be realistic.
12. In your opinion, has dating discrimination impeded your ability to start a family?
No
13. In your opinion, what steps can be taken to eliminate dating discrimination?
Ingroup education with people with disability, in this case, specificly blind people and vi people to start with.
Thanks again,
Becky
I was once told by another blind person that he can't date me because I'm blind. What about blind-on-blind dating discrimination? lol. This is a bit silly. In a way, I understand how this can be valid, but come on. Everyone gets discriminated against in terms of dating, because people have incongruent tastes and preferences when it comes to choosing partners.
Like I told Becky off-site, I've never thought of this as discrimination, because who one dates is a very personal choice. While I don't think I'd use the word discrimination, I see the broader points she's making. None of the sighted men I've ever had interest in have reciprocated it, and although they were content to be a friend, it was pretty clear that they couldn't imagine dating the blind girl. I've noticed a lot of my blind friends have had the same kind of thing happen. In short, Becky's language might be on the more extreme side, but I see what she means.
BTW, Becky, good on you for recognizing that people who are partially vs totally blind get treated differently in this kind of thing, as in most others.
I don't see this sort of thing as discrimination, in the least. people having standards is the way it's supposed to be, and honestly, if people, whether they're sighted or blind, wouldn't be interested in dating me, chances are that I wouldn't wanna give them the time of day, either.
I think you guys are missing a key distinction within this issue, preference versus discrimination. People have preferences with regard to hair color, height, skin color (meaning fair versus dark, not white versus black), age, hobbies, etc. Even race, which has historically been a point of discrimination, can simply be a preference. The degree to which these preferences are taken into account when choosing a partner depends on the individual. And there's nothing wrong with that. But if someone meets a blind person and says, "Well, you satisfy all of my personal preferences, every one of them. But... there's just no way I could date you. You're blind.", what word could you use to define this person's statement? Let's plug the statement into a different scenario and see how we would define it: An employer meets a blind person and says, "Well, you satisfy all of our requirements, every one of them. But... there's just no way we can hire you. You're blind." You don't call that employment preference, do you? And before you say, "But Becky, there aren't many instances in which either a potential partner or a potential employer is going to come right out and say that," I think we all can tell when our blindness is the reason that we're turned down, whether we're told directly or not. So if you still want to find a less extreme word than discrimination, be my guest. But it amounts to the same thing. The only difference with this type of discrimination is that one cannot be held legally accountable for it. You can't take someone to court for refusing to date you on the basis of your blindness. That's why I created this survey. I want to see if dating discrimination is, in fact, as big a problem as I think it is, and if so, try and determine a solution. I'd be grateful if you all could keep an open mind about the survey. If you take the time to answer the questions, you might just be surprised at what your answers imply.
Becky
What complicates things is people are not always going to be so forward about what their exact objection to you is. People want to protect your feelings from being shredded, not that just the general bring-down of the rejection is shredding enough. But anyhow, when I was single and pursuing fully able-bodied sighted women, I was usually told if I was given a reason at all either they were already attached or too busy and one or two flat-out told me they weren't interested in me that way and saw me as more like a brother. Others would just avoid phone calls and the like. Now, not being your absolute mainstream sort of guy, it couldn't have always been the blindness. I'd imagine for a lot of gals, being nerdy or introverted or not having lots of money or a car would be equal turn-offs, since I didn't smoke or drink or have tattoos or piercings. I can tell you about patterns though. Can't give you percentages because for one thing the memory isn't so clear of those years at my age, but There were a few fully sighted women who had other disabilities who seemed to take some sort of interest in me. Same goes for women with visual impairments or who were totally blind, although I think a few of them seemed to misinterpret my just being nice to them as romantic feelings. So, boys and girls of the peanut gallery, analyze that!
G-O-T. the rejection could happen to anyone. I rejected a few sighted/blind guys too, even though the sighted people might have cars, house, stable career etc etc. I think it is not fair to say sighted people reject blind people in the dating seen because they are blind or such. Same could happen to blind people rejecting sighted people because they are sighted too. I mean, some blind or vi zoners got strong enough opinion that they will be much comfortable with a blind person, and won't consider dating a sighted person. Of course, you also got those that is on another side of the extreme, blind person only date sighted person for whatever reason.
I do agree with Becky, there are different between preference versus discrimination. I could have the preference for dating sighted person, someone with a car, a big house, at last in a managerial career, got loads of cash and money...... VS, i'm not dating anyone who smokes or drinks, because in my little brain, people that drinks or smokes are all bad people, they stinks, always drunk, and have no money...
Questions
1. Are you partially blind or totally blind?
Blind, but not total, due to having light perception and some object perception. But can’t say partially and be correct.
2. What is your age?
N-A
3. Taking into account your complete dating history, approximately what percentage of your partners have been blind?
10%
4. Of the people who expressed interest in dating you but whose interest you did not reciprocate, approximately what percentage were blind?
2% But understand, the blindness wasn’t the issue.
5. Of the people who you expressed interest in dating but who did not reciprocate your interest, approximately what percentage were blind?
5% maybe? Been rejected for race difference mostly. Age gap once.
6. Have you ever been told by a sighted person that they would not date you because of your blindness? If so, how many times has this happened?
No, not directly, But through other ways, yes. Friends, and family opinion mainly.
On dating sites, been asked many questions about how I’d conduct the date/relationship. And how was I even posting here anyway? So sure.
7. Have you ever had a strong feeling that a sighted person refused to date you because of your blindness, even if the person did not indicate this to you? If so, how many times has this happened?
Several via dating sites. This was due to making the yes, or no happen. Person to person is hard to say how many, but I’m sure it happened.
8. in your opinion, is dating discrimination against the blind prevalent in our society?
If you use the blind only thing, and not preference, I’d say yes.
9. Has dating discrimination ever adversely affected your self-esteem?
No!
10. Has dating discrimination ever discouraged you from seeking a sighted partner?
Nope!
11. In your opinion, has dating discrimination affected your chances of finding true love?
I personally don’t believe in true love. I was married to a sighted woman for years, and am not now. It was love, and true for a time, a season? Smile.
Some folks do this for life, but I believe that is due to total respect, or total wasting life, due to dealing with the pain and hardship due to society dictates.
12. In your opinion, has dating discrimination impeded your ability to start a family?
Nope.
13. In your opinion, what steps can be taken to eliminate dating discrimination?
For the blind person to stop looking at it as such. If one person says no and you ask enough, someone will say yes.
I believe as long as we have the human condition, disability will always be a factor.
Even if you have perfect in all ways, but you are blind, you will feel the rejection. What you do with it matters.
I hope I’ve help.
Also on question 5, I need to add no blind person refused me due to being blind.
Becky, the point others and I are trying to make, still stands.
as I said, I don't consider what you're laying out to be discrimination, much less a bad thing. rather, it's a fact of life, that will either make you or break you, depending on how you handle it.
that's just my opinion, though, not to mention, I'm not gonna try to wrack my brain thinking about percentages, when, contrary to popular belief, I'd venture to say that most of the time, sighted people's rejections of us likely don't even have to do with what we're doing, not doing, or what's out of our control.
what I mean, is, maybe they had a bad experience with someone who was disabled, in the past, so now, they hesitate to get close to disabled people, due to being unsure how we'll react.
so, to me, this issue is not black and white, as many seem to think it is.
I'm by no means saying it's right, but I'm simply advocating that jumping to conclusions isn't right, either.
But dating/relationship discrimination against the blind does in fact exist. I know because I was blatantly told by a guy he wouldn’t date me because since I was blind, I could not appreciate his looks. I know a totally blind woman who was told by her partially sighted boyfriend of two years that if they took the relationship any further, she would hold him back. My ex-wife was told by a potential boyfriend that he shouldn’t date her because he’d always have to take care of her. When I told a potential over the phone sometime back that I was blind, you could hear the horror in his voice. Needless to say he didn’t call again. This isn’t a situation where some would prefer you weren’t A, B or C, but outright discrimination based on a disability. And there’s nothing that can be done about it short of us being sighted, at least in those particular instances. So I don’t think it’s as benign as some would believe.
Hmmm, Johndy, now this gets me to wondering which might be dangerous. Now, when a person makes a statement to a blind person like "I can't date you because you'll hold me back or I'll have to take care of you, I'm wondering what evidence this is based on. I'm guessing all they know is that the person is blind and they have not seen the blind person in action, so to speak, going about their business doing errands or whatever daily things need be done. Then there's the question of if the blind person explained that they were in fact quite independent and would rarely need help with anything, would the sighted person listen or would their mind be permanently made up based pretty much on no concrete evidence to support their point of view.
The last two posts are rational enough.
I have actually broken off with a girl because she said she would have to take care of me.
Evidence? I think not.
The reasons among heterosexuals at least, may depend upon the gender in question. Even in an egalitarian-leaning society, I have been told by independent, progressive women that they would not date me because they knew disabled people generally make less money than non-disabled people. These were not gold diggers: they were independent, feminist, not doormats being squished upon by fools. But the two times it happened, it was made clear it was a monetary issue: they wanted someone who could take care of them in case their working choices changed, and they just couldn't necessarily be counted upon to contribute financially.
My marriage of 21 years is a testament to the opposite.
Now, I imagine some traditionalist male archetype of yesteryear may claim not to date a blind woman because he thinks she won't be able to 'keep the house' as well as someone else. Again, operating under some rather concave assumptions that only one keeps the house that both live in. Highly illogical as clonclusions go.
I just don't think any of this is actually cut and dry.
I know stay-at-home fathers whom I very much respect who, like many women have, put their careers on hold and are staying with the kids while she works. It actually works out to be cheaper this way unless both parties can earn significantly enough to offset daycare, extended medical, and other costs associated with both parties working. These are men I highly respect. But they would certainly be out of the dating pool for the aforementioned feminists and their need for working choices. And they, like I am, are perfectly content to do any number of domestic tasks without complaint, not to overcome any political agendas, but simply just because it's there and needs doing.
Perhaps they would be rejected by some, only the blindness would not be the issue.
And I think Johndy has a point: someone who is insecure cannot take from a blind partner that they are beautiful. So I think my wife is beautiful. A gay man thinks his husband or partner is beautiful. Why is our assessment of the situation somehow to be construed as less than that of the sighted person?
That makes no rational sense whatsoever. I can, and do, respect my wife's profession and field of expertise, even though I know very little about it. She's a early childhood educator and works at social service places like Headstart and now the home for teenage mothers. The extent of this engineer's social service leanings are that I will happily carry boxes of food and supplies for poor people. But even though I don't understand the ins and outs of child development, beyond being a plain old dad, and I don't understand the intricacies of bonds and boundaries and all that, I can still see how She is remarkable and intelligent in Her field.
That admiration from me to Her is socially accepted. But the admiration of a blind partner for the sighted partner, that admiration which says the sighted person is more beautiful than a flower, that doesn't hold water because we cannot see them or the multiple colors in a flower.
This whole concept is probably worth exploring, outside of the blindness orthodoxy so many apologists on this thread are upholding, and without using the dreaded 'D' word that disarms sighted people in this situation. I think figuring out the problem, sans orthodox apologetic and sans throwing loaded terms at people, could be very constructive.
So now I have to wonder if people's rejection of us are based on either their own primal caveman fears or assorted insecurities of theirs, in the end if you wound up with that person anyhow through whatever persuasive means, would they end up being quite the catch you thought they would or would being with them be more pain and bother than anything else. So discrimination or not, I wonder if maybe we have to consider the source and pick ourselves up and go somewhere where we're actually wanted.
You're probably right. And I, like you, think it has far more to do with primitive fears than anything else. Things that live in, or crawl out from, the darkness are scary horrible things. These are the predatory snakes that consumed the ancestors' children at night. And we represent, to some at least, the idea that they themselves could become 'one of us' in an instant.
A white racist from Stormfront.org cannot be truly afraid of going black in an instant. Even if some of us, (true confessions I guess), have gotten drunk and trolled that site by expounding on how all homo sapiens journeyed out of Africa, and the DNA evidence ties the most livid racist to the blackest of blacks.
However, as livid as those racists may become at the thought, it's just not the same as someone who sees a disabled person and that person becomes the visage of their greatest nightmares.
You're right, such a person is not a catch at all.
I call it discrimination , because it is not the same as race, looks, and such matters. It is singled on a disability.
I don't fault the person for feeling as they do, and I'd not wish to be with a woman/partner that wasn't comfortable being with me.
However, it is a fact, and ignoring it seems silly to me, or pretending it doesn't exist.
I have dated blind women that have complained about men stating they felt odd because she could not look in there eyes and see their feelings.
They could not share a mountain seen, or a movie totally.
It boils down to site, because these same men would be really happy and feel good if the same woman could see.
They like her for what she is, but...
We can choose to pretend it isn't there if we like, butdoing so doesn't help.
It’s funny, but the guy who told me he could never date me because of my blindness and not being able to see and appreciate him visually became in time less beautiful in my figurative eyes than he was before. Not sure I would go for it if he approached me again, telling the truth, because I find I just don’t have either the time or inclination. It’s also flattering in some ways, but recently I’ve been hit on by a couple people, and I find I’m strangely unmoved. It’s not that I didn’t find them alluring, it’s just that I guess in large measure I wonder if I’ve either given up, or thanks to the recent troubles I had some time back, I’m just not willing to bother. To my way of thinking lately, I wonder if relationships in general, gay or straight, are worth the bullshit. On the one hand, I like the remote, serene, vaguely imperial air I seem to have developed because maybe it makes me feel less vulnerable than ever before, but on the other hand it’s sad that this development came to pass at all. It takes away some of the beauty in life, but maybe I want some revenge? Too bad it’s against the wrong people. These are just some stray thoughts running through my mind at this time though.
I suppose it matter depending on what you want out of a relationship.
If it is for pleasure, fun, it not matter to much if he came back. You could enjoy him, understanding he's not there for the long term. Worth the bullshit.
From a long term bases, the bullshit will come out, so it not be worth it at all. You'd care greatly, because you'd have invested some emotion in to it more then just enjoyment.
This is how I look at this.
So Wayne, VH, Westcoastcdngrl, or anyone else who has sight or has had it and lost it:
Those of us lifers who are also compassionate human beings do understand that sighted people get a lot out of the visual contact. The eye contact. I don't mean facing their direction eityer: the communication exchange that happens between looks. If we're with a sighted person, they would rather be across from us instead of right next to us.
Even though I've been in a long-term relationship with someone sighted, I am not any closer to understanding this eye contact / looking into the other's eyes situation. I do understand the exchange happens at lightning speed, compared to the slow nature of words. How cdan we, as the blind, provide them with the greatest possible simile to this, while knowing they won't be getting the real thing? This has to be quite a sacrifice for them to lose access to that in a lover. Just as it is a bit dysphoric at times for us to be across from them in what is for us an intimate setting, but now feels kind of distant.
When I was younger, I was so dedicated to the blind orthodoxy expressed by many on this thread, gulping the Kool-Aid like many of these on here are doing, (Wayne and Johndy being notable exception), that I never gave this full and proper consideration. At least I did not admit to others or myself that it was in my mind.
I think it is a challenge. The human software associated with visual perception is so sophisticated that we lifers express it in different ways. But we don't have the advantage of all that high-speed communication that comes with looking into the other's eyes, or the other looking into ours.
I think feedback from people who used to see and now don't, could be particularly instructive. Just dodge incomings from the army of young blind orthodoxy apologists, the rest of us will indeed be better off after reading your thoughts on this.
We might be blind, but we are all human, and central to the human experience is intense empathy for the other.
Leo, what is this blind orthodoxy, or drinking the Cool-Aid, of which you speak? I'm confused. I don't think I subscribe to any particular blind orthodoxy, or have drank any Cool-Aid. Even though you may not have been referring to me specifically, I'm curious what in the world you meant by this. I can't tell that anyone on this thread has.
The idea that there is no difference, the idea that blindness doesn't affect anything, that it is all attitude.
The stone I cast was mainly against my younger self. But that thinking simply is not accurate.
I am a relatively short man in a tall family- her family at least. They can not attitude their way into tight squishy places like I can. They cannot attitude their way out of the back and joint issues that plague the tall people. And I cannot attitude my way up to their height.
From a purely skeptical persuasion, that thinking simply makes no rational sense at all. None.
Now, just because it makes no rational sense doesn't make us feeling sorry for ourselves, or any other rhetorical rejoinder.
I do think there are some things that could be up for consideration that could help us in "intersighted" relationships. Yeah I just thought that word up, hence the quotes, and the private laughter. I understand the emotional appeal of the it's-all-attitude approach. But it is emotional appeal, after all. If we really subscribed to that, nobody would use assistive tools, or contemplate ways to make ourselves understood and others' feelings accounted for, where vision is the primary difference between us.
This isn't just true of the blind, it's true for anyone: age stuff, size stuff, race stuff, gender / sexual orientation stuff, beliefs stuff, and so on.
OK, Leo, I may have experienced what you're getting at. See, I went to this training center to update a few skills, mobility and such, and since most of the students were blind folks who were learning blindness skills for the first time, we ahd some discussions every week about blindness stuff. We were fed a lot of pat phrases, attitude is everything, image is everything, perception is reality, as regards how we interacted with the public.
There is more to it then eye contact.
The sharing of things in a room, on a street, in a shop.
I've been told from my sight ex she wished sometimes I could drive.
The interesting thing about that is now she's seeing a sighted man, and one day, she told me it wasn't all that important anymore as she felt it would be.
She never did talk about the eye contact and that sort of thing, because maybe due to me being visual before, she could say something about something she saw, and I could relate and discuss it as if I saw it too.
Not everything of course.
I do agree with your points Leo.
I think in the giving up, the sighted person has to want to pick up some other skills.
For that to happen, she/he has to be truly interested in making it go however.
I see what you're driving at Leo, and you're right, that kind of thinking isn't true. Attitude effects a lot of things, but there's certainly more to it than that. I don't think anyone on this thread has implied it's all about attitude, though.
I see what you're driving at Leo, and you're right, that kind of thinking isn't true. Attitude effects a lot of things, but there's certainly more to it than that. I don't think anyone on this thread has implied it's all about attitude, though.
No, but we've all experienced when people have made that implication, and quite passionately at that.
Questions
1. Are you partially blind or totally blind?
I am sighted... typically Asian nearsighted with astigmatism and early
middle age onset presbyopia, which means that granny style reading
glasses are now part of my reality.
2. What is your age?
I am (2x3)(4+3) years old.
3. Taking into account your complete dating history, approximately what
percentage of your partners have been blind?
One.
4. Of the people who expressed interest in dating you but whose interest
you did not reciprocate, approximately what percentage were blind?
None... mind you, I'm coming from a sighted being pursued by blind
perspective. If it were a sighted being pursued by sighted, it would be
higher... close to 50%
5. Of the people who you expressed interest in dating but who did not
reciprocate your interest, approximately what percentage were blind?
Again, coming from a sighted pursuing blind perspective, this would be a
big fat zero. I never pursued a blind guy. This is not to say that I wouldn't
have ever pursued a blind guy but rather I never had the opportunity to.
On a sighted pursuing sighted perspective, this number would be roughly
25%, but then I never really dated much in my twenties or early thirties.
6. Have you ever been told by a sighted person that they would not date
you because of your blindness? If so, how many times has this happened?
No.
7. Have you ever had a strong feeling that a sighted person refused to
date you because of your blindness, even if the person did not indicate this
to you? If so, how many times has this happened?
I have NEVER refused to date a blind guy... in fact, I married one.
Truth be told, I'd have a bigger problem dating a guy who is confined to a
wheelchair than I'd ever have agreeing to date a blind guy. Visual
impairment is something that I'd be more patient about dealing with than
having to consider the logistics of dealing with a wheelchair.
This is not to say that if I'd met someone interesting who happened to be
wheelchair bound I would totally consider not dating him but rather I don't
know how "in to him" I'd be compared to someone who happened to be
visually impaired but 100% independently ambulatory.
8. In your opinion, is dating discrimination against the blind prevalent in
our society?
I agree with Wayne... if you use the blind only thing, and not preference,
I’d say yes. A person can be discriminated against whether they're blind
or sighted, smart or stupid.
9. Has dating discrimination ever adversely affected your self-esteem?
In a way, yes. In my experience, as an Asian woman, there have been
men who are only interested in me for the fact that I'm Asian and as such,
they expect me to act a certain way. I know that this isn't the same as
blindness discrimination, but the core hurt is still there. There's nothing I
can do to change my ethnic origins any more than any of you can change
your visual impairment. It sucks, and when I was single, I tended to shy
away from these "Rice King" types.
10. Has dating discrimination ever discouraged you from seeking a sighted
partner?
No. As a sighted, I consider a person's personality first and their visual
capabilities second... vision can be taken away from the sighted without
warning, so not being able to see is not really an issue for me. I would
(and have) consider a visually impaired partner as much as I'd consider a
sighted partner.
11. In your opinion, has dating discrimination affected your chances of
finding true love?
No. When I was single and looking, I kept an open mind in regards to the
type of guy I'd consider as far as blindness/sightedness goes. I am very
fortunate with the person I'm married to.
12. In your opinion, has dating discrimination impeded your ability to start
a family?
Hell no. If anything, the only thing impeding my ability to start a family is
the age at which I started to try (2x2)(2x5).
13. In your opinion, what steps can be taken to eliminate dating
discrimination?
In as much as I agree with Wayne, I think that us sighteds need to pick up
the slack in this regard and start being more accepting of the visually
impaired community.
Sure, I have fears about the future, especially where early childhood
raising is concerned. How will hubby be able to tell what our children look
like. If I have to go out for whatever reason and he's stuck at home to
look after the baby/toddler, short of a trip to the pub with the kids, how will
he manage especially if there's a diaper to be changed or a trip to the
potty is needed?
I then stop and give myself a slap upside my head and remind the worry
wart in my brain that lots of blind/visually impaired couples have
successfully raised children to adulthood without any major catastrophes
and there's no reason why we should be any different... after all, I'm
looking at the situation as an outsider and haven't considered all of the
shortcuts and tricks that the blind community have to deal with the issues
that the sighted world take for granted.
Well done Kate. Very honest answer. I think what people didn't realize that dating discrimination (if one insist it occur) happen to other people from other ethnic, race, religion group too. Kate put this very well, and i'm sure there are some zoners here will only date christians as they are hard christian themselves. Same with the ethnic thing. There are people coming up to me, attracted on me because i'm simply, asian, and got that "asian figure" on me. This even happen with a blind person as well, he attracted on me because i'm Asian, and he's particularly attracted to Asian women.
I don't believe in blind dating discrimination, however, i believe in people that believe that is such thing call blind discrimination. Of course, if you believe in that kind of discrimination, you already, somewhat discriminating yourself from it. Just like some of my Asian friends told me that white people discriminate people with colour skin, or, so call racist against colour. I can say that is true, i do encounter some ramdem white people are like that, but i can say that with them too, they looked for those that will discriminate them, but ignore those that friends with them. Just like what i said on my previous comments with blind people discriminating sighted people as well as sighted people discriminating blind people.
Another aspect to this that we as blind people have to consider: discrimination the sighted
partner might receive for dating us. This mainly affects partners from the predominant
culture where you're at. The things I've seen said to partners of mine have been awful.
This is typically younger, heterosexual women comparing notes. In my case. If a young
man said such things like that, he might expect such favors as a fat lip or being excluded.
We have to be ready to help the partners navigate this stuff, in my opinion, especially
where the partner comes from a predominant culture and may not be ready for such an
onslaught.
Leo, could you give examples? The only reaction I've heard from somebody who sees a couple where one is blind and the other is sighted is when the sighted person is deluged with praise for taking care of the blind person and what a long-suffering saint they must be, as if in that observer's eyes the relationship is just one of caretaking but is otherwise loveless.
That is a major part of it, and makes the sighted partner feel awful. I would not call it
praise: more like a backhanded compliment. Hurts most when it comes from someone
they thought they knew.
The other undertone comes from those who tell the sighted partner how they could do so
much better, or similar attitude. Especially when it comes from more so-called progressive
quarters: the feminist I dated who was told by her so-called progressive peers how a
disabled person! not earning as much! would interfere with her working choices / need to
be flexible. It might be easy to armchair judge a partner in this situation, but I was, and
am, acutely aware that they have not had a lifetime of dealing with this and the
accompanying skills that naturally follow as a result.
Hope this makes sense.
I make sure that when Hubby and I are out, we behave as much like a
sighted couple as possible.
I do offer guidance to him in certain situations like getting on or off the bus
or subway or going through turnstiles or up or down stairs or navigating
around obstacles in our path... I put him out first ahead of me instead of
dragging him behind me, unless it's in a place where he's not really
interested in seeing what's around him (like a stationery store, clothing
store or similar).
When we're out looking at stuff or buying things for him, I generally stand
back and give him audible clues as to what is being presented to him while
he deals with the sales clerk. He may ask my opinion from time to time,
but for the most part he decides for himself what he wants.
Beyond that, we're just your average Kate and Ed Average couple. He
makes the wine selection and signs the check when we're out for dinner,
we hold hands and walk together as equals in public (he carries his cane
folded up)... sometimes I think that people don't always realise that we
are husband and wife when they're dealing with us together, but I think
that that's more because they just assume that he's just "The Blind Client"
and I'm "His Carer" until we start interacting and our dialogue goes beyond
the Client/Carer level of communication.
I don't feel awful about the situation, even when they do initially assume
that that's the case... it's not the end of the world to be perceived that way,
after all, I could and have been called much worse... it's my choice to be
with Ed and not my detractor's and if they don't like the situation then they
don't have to date/marry a visually impaired person... I'm not going to get
bent out of shape for whom they choose, so I would appreciate it if they'd
return the courtesy.
Ah well... that's all a gigantic case of hashtag first world problems.
Smile.
I'm with Alicia, in that I don't think anyone on this thread is devaluing the benefits of eye contact.
I'll add to Leo and Kate.
1. You could do better.
2. You'll never have the things you want to have. This was told to my ex by her mother, who tried to get her to move on. Ironicale, my wife had a far beter life then her mother in terms of meterial possessions, and that was always a sore point. Her mother would tell her to do odd things, and tell her I was wrong when I made major decisions. This eventually was part of our downfall.
3. Don't you get tired of helping him do thingts? Even though we never hired things repaired in our homes, her automobiles always worked par, she never carried the food, or anything else she brought home in to the house from the garage, and other benefits or having a husband, these questions were asked.
4. Don't you get embarrassed when you are out?
5. Men would assume I was her brother, or something, so didn't mind coming up to her a flat out asking her to dance or whatever. Even for her number. Smile. I really enjoyed this. People are totally surprised to learn I wasn't her brother, or the blind guy she was helping.
6. The last one happends all the time when I date sighted women from time to time. I once dated and was extremely intimate with a lady that went to a church that prohibgited her being with a man outside the flock. She'd take me to church with her all the time, and no one, and I mean no one figured I wasn't anything more then the blind guy she brought to church. Bless her heart! Smile.
I must admit though, being perceived as Ed's carer does have its
advantages.
In the UK and the Republic of Ireland, there is a scheme in place where
disabled people enjoy discounts off of admission to places and their carers
often get to join them for free. This policy is also in effect in parts of
western Europe.
When we were in Dublin, Ireland, we got discounted admissions to the
Guinness distillery tour and also got to go to the Jamieson's Whisky tour
for free and we both got shots of whisky at the end of the tour.
In the UK, we've enjoyed super discounted admissions to places like the
Bronte museum in West Yorkshire and other places... Ed got a discount
and i got in free.
In Paris, we both got to go up the Arc de Triomphe for free and got a
discount on the admission to go to the top of the Eiffel Tower.
In Rome, we also got into the Vatican Museum for free because of Ed's
cane.
We also like and enjoy priority seating on planes and trains but I find it a
nuisance sometimes to refuse seats on the bus and subway when people
automatically see Ed get on and try to offer him a seat. If we're only going
a few stops, we'll just stand or look for seats near the back of the bus.
Sometimes it takes a while for the potential donor to stay in their seat but
we don't make any effort to take it from them if it's not required.
So, as sucky as it sometimes is to be identified as Ed's carer, the perks
more than make up for it.
I've gotten a lot of those when I've dated sighted women, which makes up the vast majority of the women I've been with.
Oh, Leo, I get it. But as to some of the stories, I've ahd sighed female friends that I went out with and did things and people would ask if she was my sister or a nurse or such. On one occasion some creepy neighbor asked me intending to ask her out, and of course she didn't want anything to do with this feller either. I know one time I was with a friend who I just met on a telephone dating site so we were just going out for some Chinese food and getting acquainted. When she came back from the buffet, she told me some guy asked her if she was a nurse or some such thing. As I recall she was kind of offended by the question, and I also wonder if her being African-American had anything to do with it.
I want to make a separate post to make a separate point. This is why I tend to advocate for dating other blind people depending on if you meet any you like. It may be considered a stereotype or limiting, but I tell you what, you don't get backhanded compliments or other commentary from those who'd best mind their own business, least Sabrena and I don't here in Seattle. For all I know, either Seattlites have manners and respect boundaries or else they're so self-involved they don't notice us that much, so no comments from the peanut gallery whilst we're out to dinner on a date night.
Ahh! Heck. It is fun, and as Westcoast pointed out, sometimes aves you money. Smile.
Getting offended I learned is wasting. I'll not limit myself to only dating blind women, provided, I can find enough to date, due to the worlds problem.
I think the best remark is, she's my care giver. Well, sure, she is! Smile. Just think about that one.
You know, no matter how many times the lady I date tells people she's not my care giver, they simply refuse to accept it.
Next, if you have a race difference, or something, this idea gets even harder to unseat. So be it.
Wayne... I think that that may be part of my problem as being perceived
as Ed's carer.
I'm very much Asian looking in my appearance... there's no way you could
possibly hide this fact any more easily than asking for someone at NASA to
make the sun stop shining. Add to this the fact that I _do not_ speak with
a UK English or Asian accent and that just makes it that much more
difficult.
Ed, on the other hand... if he were a girl, he'd be classified as a typical
English Rose. Sandy blond hair, pale skin, blue eyes... he could very well
have passed for the late Princess Diana's much much younger brother.
This is why I try to make it look like we're both sighted when we're out
together in public... the whole holding hands and walking as equals thing as
opposed to him walking behind me or I behind him.
I'm just glad I'm married and I don't have to date. LOL!
Welp I won't answer all th questions because I don't feel like going
back and forth up and down the page to do so, I would copy and
paste but dunno how too on this laptop. I am totally blind, age is
old enough lol, I have never dated a blind person, to the next 2 no
and no I really don't be around blind people only sighted ones. I
have been told that people wasn't interested in me because of
beeing blind, but so what? I have been told that because of my
smoking and drinking, also but still Im still here and living fine. I
have only been rejected of my blindness twice though. Most people
don't believe im blind til they meet me in person they say I don't
look or act as if so. Besides I have been running into guys that don't
mind having a fine woman hanging onto them to show off I don't
blame them lol. Beeing blind used to get to me because I wasn't
borne this way but I learn to cope with it. I believe everyone might
find some type of love close to true but that goes for everyone. We
should get out more and be around more people to let them
understand the things we go threw and how we live. I have always
been with sighted people once again so that other question will be
a no, even though I haven't answered this in order I tried to
answer as much as I could lol. as for a family I just ain't ready to
setsettle down yet. Iunno I guess I attract more sighted guys then
blind ones.
Oh now that I think about it, I have been rejected of blind people
because we didn't get along because of my smoking drinking and the
type of music I listen too, although they was sighted they really liked
my looks guess it was lust making them deal with me til they got
enough courage to tell me they wasn't interested but I hate a lead on
and cut off
Kate, very informative responses.
I like Tommy Edison's videos on Youtube. Humorous but describes a lot.
Wow, y'all got really philosophical on me. lol. As much as all of the differing opinions and insight interest me and have given me even more to think about, I'd still really like to compile some statistics. I wonder if more people would be willing to do the survey if I put it on Survey Monkey or a similar site and made a few of the questions less open-ended. That way, it could be completely anonymous and wouldn't have to take as long.
Becky
You might try that. As for me, I'm just not into taking that much time to do a survey; I like the free flow of ideas. Just my thing and no intense offended.
On a topic like this percentages are really hard.
How does one measure them accurately?
Just another opinion.
Yeah, you'd be working with peoples perceptions of events. Depending on their
viewpoints, getting honest answers would be hard. considering the sample size
of your target group, and further shrinking that by how likely people would be
to complete the survey really doesn't give you the room required to filter out
the slanted statistics. In short, I applaud your efforts, though I don't think you'll
have an easy time of this for the above reasons.
that being the case, I think calling this discrimination is a little harsh. Its just a
preference. like any other. It just hits us particularly hard, because most people
are too narrow minded to consider dating blind people as viable. I've noticed as
an observer of this based on other friends experiences that blind women in
general seem to have an easier time of ending up with sighted men, than the
other way around, because of gender rolls being what they are.
Personally I've experienced people unable to cope with my blindness.
I've also known some who had interest but were shamed for it by their peers,
so felt social pressure not to actually engage in taking that interest anywhere.
1. Are you partially blind or totally blind?
Totally.
2. What is your age?
21.
3. Taking into account your complete dating history, approximately what percentage of your partners have been blind?
66% or 2/3.
4. Of the people who expressed interest in dating you but whose interest you did not reciprocate, approximately what percentage were blind?
Probably close to 100%, but i'm not entirely sure.
5. Of the people who you expressed interest in dating but who did not reciprocate your interest, approximately what percentage were blind?
Again, I'm not sure how to measure the percentage on this, but a much lower number. Maybe about 1/3 of the people?
6. Have you ever been told by a sighted person that they would not date you because of your blindness? If so, how many times has this happened?
No.
7. Have you ever had a strong feeling that a sighted person refused to date you because of your blindness, even if the person did not indicate this to you? If so, how many times has this happened?
Yes, once.
8. In your opinion, is dating discrimination against the blind prevalent in our society?
No, but I do think there is a disability biased, for sure. It just may not be focused specifically on the blind.
9. Has dating discrimination ever adversely affected your self-esteem?
Yes. I get worried about meeting people in bars and clubs, where it's loud and hard to communicate just by voice. In these places, eye contact seems particularly important, and I can't do that, so there are some awkward moments. Sometimes, I assume no one is paying attention to me, and then I am very much surprised to discover that guys do look at me and stuff.
10. Has dating discrimination ever discouraged you from seeking a sighted partner?
No.
11. In your opinion, has dating discrimination affected your chances of finding true love?
No. If they discriminated against me from the start, there was no chance we would fall in love.
12. In your opinion, has dating discrimination impeded your ability to start a family?
No. Refer to above response.
13. In your opinion, what steps can be taken to eliminate dating discrimination?
Well, if it's as big an issue as some people perceive, then probably awareness or group discussion is the best. I think it is less an issue of blind discrimination, though, and more anyone with a disability. I think there is a gender bias, too. If the woman is blind, and the man sighted, I think comments about caregiving are less common, because women are perceived to be caregivers more than men.
Hope my responses make sense. If I repeated anything, my apologies - I did not read through all responses. I think there is more an issue of bias here than discrimination, although I do appreciate where the survey is coming from. Very interesting. You should reach out to a wider margin of people though. Maybe college students would be interesting.
As to the discounts, I think that is a European thing, at least it's not in America. Plus American culture is pretty dead set on making sure nobody is taking any sort of special advantage.
Though, I did get one of those free admissions passes into state parks here in the U.S., at least Oregon, when we were poor and they offerd it to us. I would not have done that when younger, but I had a 10-year-old daughter and a wife in the car, and the cost to get into the Fourth of July event at Fort Vancouver in Washington State was just that much more expensive than we had read about.
So it was either take it, and give the 10 year old an opportunity, or forego it in the name of being offended or being a blind ambassador. Like any parent, my child's interests came first.
But generally there is no disabled discount for anything, and if there was you would see half the Zone population get all upset and claim the blind were misrepresenting the blind because they used it or something. I knew some NFB types out here years ago who would not take the honored citizen discount on public transit, which is for disabled and seniors. I wonder if they also eschewed youth passes for their kids as well.
Anyway, give what you can, take what is available to you, and pass it on down the line, I say. Anymore, at least.
I get discounts or free on things for my partner all the time.
Like transit, we both ride free.
Amusment parks, so offer discounted fairs. 6 flags, I believe is one of these.
Other items as well, if you check. I don't make it a habit, but if people are going to think she's my care giver, well. Smile.
I wish that I could get free trips on the subway... Ed has a free transit pass
from the council (UK equivalent to what North Americans call City Hall) and
they also gave him a card that entitles him to 104 discounted rides in a taxi
per year.
Since the retail value of the transit pass and the discount on the taxi rides
far exceeds the amount of municipal tax that we pay to the council every
year, I don't believe that we really have that much to complain about...
after all, the last borough that we lived in means tested for its taxi discount
cards and deemed Ed to be earning more than the threshold amount so
they didn't give one to him.
I did live in one city where totally blind people went free on the buses. Only lived there six months though.
Most cities you pay a discount. I think Portland is fair: it's not just for the blind but any disabled person and any senior citizen.
One thing I will never ever do is wrongfully get a handicapped sticker, as some have wanted me to, for people to put in their window. I know people, like my in-laws, who need it. Nothing at all wrong with my legs and I would feel like shit knowing we could possibly have used up the last spot and left some real physically disabled person out in the cold and the rain trying to get inside, slowly, with a cane or crutches or something.
My mom got one of those stickers for her car. Granted at the time it was for my grandmother's benefit and she did indeed have a legitimate need for it due to all sorts of physical disabilities. After se passed away last October though myy mom sort of forgottoremoveit. As for partners being assumed to be my caregivers I've never actually had that happen to me. People usually assume she's a family member. Heck, my ex fiance seven years back was once mistaken for my mom. The only exception was when I was with my ex Maria four years ago and people generally assumed I was helping her get her citizenship papers, never mind the fact that she was born in the US and had no trace of an accent.
I used to work with someone who was totally ambulatory and used the
wheelchair card to park in the handicapped spots at work... when there were
no spots open, she'd park in a designated "no parking" space beside the
handicapped spot.... I know for a fact that she was ambulatory because I'd
see her, dressed in nursing scrubs, get out of her car and walk to her unit.
This used to infuriate me to no end, and she's damned lucky that I didn't call
SPARC BC (the people who issued the cards) to report her.
I agree people that don't get the benefit shouldn't use them, but I do, and have the medical reason.
Now, I don't set in the front seat unless it is vacant, and if I notice anyone getting on the transit with bags, or anything else that that seat could benefit, I give it to them.
We get that taxi credit as well, and I use it all the time when going out.
I can take my dates blind or sighted, and if she drives, many times this saves on parking.
I don't have a parking permit, and that's good. I don't drive. So she has to walk with me to the place from wherever we park. Looks good, I say! Smile.
Walking is a great way to get to know each other on dates anyway.
Portland has no discount on taxi service for the blind, not that I have ever heard of anyway.
Now I'm curious ... although where I live, I walk almost everywhere, take the train or the bus / trolley anywhere else.
When it is easiest I take the bus or trains.
The taxi fair here gives up about 12 miles of fide for the flag fee $2 or up to 12 dollars of travel. After that we pay the rest.
Trains buses are free even for my companion. If that companion happends to be a child, I can take more on then one.
I used this once at our amusement park. There were several kids out of money that needed to get on the train. The conductor was watching, so they were out of luck. My wife told me, so we claimed them, about 3 and took them with us. Smile.
There are some technical problem with this survey/study to start with. There are some mix up with the way you are using quantitative research. Percentage often use in a large among of population, say, out of 200,000 people attending the world cup, there are 80% of people will be going to every games, and 20% of people only go for games that interest them. You usually have a way to compare your data, which, in this case, you have no control group or any way of comparing your data to start with. and, there is no consistancy on your quantitative research, you use percentage on question 3, 4, and 5, Then, you suddently change to frequency of events on the next couple of questions instead. In this case, your use of frequency makes more sense, as you are asking them about the ffrequency when it occuring, but again, you have nothing to compare to when times it is not occuring.
With your qualitative research, is pretty much on opinionated questions. Therefore, you are more likely to find some pretty extreme bias either they agree that dating discrimination occur, or not occur.
And of course, your sample of research is very low, you only rely on a blind orientated website, with certain blind individuals to take your survey. That itself is a bias, as you have no other subjects group to work with. And, honestly, at the end of the day, what are you trying to achieve with this so call study/research. When you said you going to take it further, hat do you mean by that, also, have you consider the culture, economic, social, demographic, education, disability and ethnic background of the participants???
You got some good starting point, and some good plan, you just need to work on it further, and think of it better a s to what you trying to achieve and how you want to achieve it in the way that you will minimizing the bias nature of the study. And of course, what sort of outcome you want to see, or trying to see from the survey...
That last post explains it all. But so-called studies like this one are all over the U.S., Joanne. Look at the filth they put out on the Snuffington Post and Salon.com. Studies show this, then studies show the opposite.
What you are asking for is actual science, and I think to add to that, we need definitions of terms, a bit of skepticism to tease out what is really meant.
People make a complete mess of statistics, for sake of confirmation bias.
Trust me on this one: as a father I've read that reliable studies show fathers are neglectful, and in the same publication, reliable studies show that fathers are too involved in their kids' lives. All kinds of ridiculous so-called data and, as you said, no control groups. No real understanding of the scientific method.
While these studies will never make it into the Center for Inquiry or other skeptical societies, they are all over the place in the aforementioned publications, and pass for science. With science like this, it's no wonder they want to teach creationism in the schools these days: both are equally nonsense.
I honestly thought she was just trying to get our thoughts, so I answered in that vain.
If she's doing a serious study, it is out of my league.
She does say she wants to take it further, but I figured, she had a plan, so didn't wonder about that.
Yep, the population is way to small for a cross sectional approach.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting a feel for how the people on this sight feel about the topic. There is no reason to be so critical or harsh. Many of us will have occasion to wonder about this or that, and we may first poll our friends, or a group like this one, to gage if there is any merit in our thinking at all. Then, the poll can be taken further or not, and refined accordingly. In my observation, there is indeed a pronounced negative bias, and it is more prevelent against blind women even than blind men. I'm one person, so that isn't scientific, but it's still my view and valid if only representing my personal experience. There is nothing wrogn with starting there.
To the last poster, nothing wrong for asking opinion, but it is what you do with so call these opinion is what is important. Every have a view, that is right too, and everyone have the rights to have a view. But, again, is what you are doing wit these opinion and view in a formal form of "study" is what is important. If not, everyone can make up their own study, and claime that they are some newly found information.
In fact, lots of researcher, spend their first few years of university life learning about how to do research, how to make a research that is as close to mutual as you possible can, and how to analyse the research. Not to say, how to collect the data, what to do with your data collection, and what you do with the post data collection. It is not just to ask 10 randem question from say, 30 randem people, and make an assumtion through that 30 randem individual with say 1,000,000 blind people in the world, from a rather blind inclusive orientated website.
From the current study structure, i can quite comfortably make my hypotheses (predicted research outcome) just be the fact that i'm on zone that supported my study by saying that:
A. 90% of the participants agree that blind discrimination on dating occur.
B. Most participants will agree that they are more comfortable dating their in-group mate (blind community).
C. 75% of the participants will have a blind partner, husband or wife.
D. Most participants agree that dating a sighted person is not an option for them because of their blindness.
But at the same time, i can also draw a study in less than 5 minutes, rejecting all my above hypotheses by having such hypotheses below.
A. Most blind people with sighted partner agree that blind dating discrimination doesn't exist.
B. Most sighted with blind partner agree that dating a blind partner is no different than dating a sighted partner.
C. Most sighted with blind partner agree that Dating or Marrying a blind partner does not mean to be their care-taker for the blind partner.
D. Most blind sighted partner agree that dating./marrying the sighted partner is not because the sighted partner can provide care for them.
And i'll aim my research to a very selective group, and asking people like say, WestgirlKate, EdG, Naked Dave, Leo and his wife, Wayne's and his XWife, and other blind/sighted relationship people.
What i'm trying to say is that, this study is too nerrow, and too bias towards a particular group of people.
Again, i'll say this again, i think this potential study got some potential to go somewhere, but it needs to be carefully plan and structure to make it that is a conclusive study. Maybe have 3 or 4 differrent groups, i don't know. Have groups of blind people, sighted people, blind people with sighted partner, and sighted people with blind partner for example. And, also, be mindful of one's social, economic, culture, ethnic, education background and vallues.
Gotta say, though.
Pasco is onto something.
Social networks are where people go to for a whole ton of things now. They outrank Google in terms of information gathering. And it's not always like Joanne is talking about. In fact, the studies she's referring to usually end up in the Huffington Post or something.
But what Pasco is talking about took the Internet, and Internet architects, by storm when Facebook and Twitter became popular. Most humans do not gain knowledge through a catalog of citations. It takes special mental training to do this. We get most of what we know via stories of others whom we trust to varying degrees.
So, for instance, I can read a study done by someone on how fish are affected by changes to what Oregon is doing to the ecology. I'm a reasonably well educated guy, more educated than some, less educated than some of you all. But marine biologist I am not: So if I share this article on Facebook, and tag my brother who has postdoctoral degrees as a marine biologist and works for the USDA among other things, I can ask him if the article makes sense.
And, people poll each other all the time.
If you want to see a ton of informal polling going on, go visit ExChristian.net.
Depending n what you read, you'll read that spouses can get along, or you'll read that the believer just can't reconcile the nonbeliever and has to break up.
But there are a lot of shared experiences. Not all experiences are shared by all people, as people like Chelslicious are vocal about pointing out: the minority few who never share any of the common experiences of the group. And every group has some of these who show up to say they never share any experiences at all of everyone else.
Humans are a social community-driven species.
hahaha, uncle leo, exchristian??? group of ex christian? how interesting. I must admit, i come rather protective of what consider study and what consider not. That is to do with my academic background perhaps, but
I do agree that opinion is widely share and widely available on the net. And every individual opinion and view are worth something. However, these should not catagorise by any way norms or means as study.
I would date you if you were strong and funny and knew who created chicago. A car
name that sounds like smattalack. A freaken crazy french guy. Anyway i would date you.